Re: Nadal number one at year end

Yeah, that's pretty much Sneaky in a nutshell, Dwight.  Only one style of tennis viable, and if any player proves otherwise, they are obviously cheating.

Re: Nadal number one at year end

Congrats to year end #1 Rafa Nadal...his greatest attributes are his mental prowess and fighting spirit and they are not due to any performance enhancing products.

Last edited by Milo (Nov. 1, 2017 11:07am)

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12, 13 & 16 King Droid
15 Naboo Cup 14 Lord Vader- RU

Re: Nadal number one at year end

dwightcharles wrote:

So let me get this straight, Sneaky...
If Roger does something that no one else has done he is a genius?
If Rafa does something that no one else has done he is a doper?

Dwight......Federer wins playing tennis..........uhh......you know actually
winning points with his incredible strokes, shot selection, and all-court
game!!!

Nadal on the other hand......wins with a strange/weird defensive game
of using his physical strength to win every point, game, match and doing
so with a substandard serve/return of serve!!! Be honest......as a Tennis
fan.........you can obviously see that Nadal wins MOST of his points by
outlasting/grinding down opponents with superior strength (foot speed
and endurance) and really NOTHING else!!!

Dwight lets be kind and say the whole tour is squeeky clean and nobody
uses PEDs. What does Dwight believe are Nadal's strengths.......you know
the reasons why he is so successful?

Re: Nadal number one at year end

Milo wrote:

Congrats to year end #1 Rafa Nadal...his greatest attributes are his mental prowess and fighting spirit and they are not due to any performance enhancing products.

Mental prowess? Fighting spirit?

How do you measure that?

Oh wait a minute......I see what you did......you can NOT
make up two reasons why you think Nadal wins!!!

So if any random player on the ATP TOUR has great mental
prowess and fighting spirit they can be a "great champion."

NO.......those two attributes are a cop-out sir.......they are
empty words.......that have NOTHING to do with a tennis
players success!!!

Mental prowess and fighting spirit are nice commentator
buzzwords but does NOT explain why a player is great!!!

I guess you do NOT know either........HA HA HA......either
do I!!! LOL

Last edited by sneaky (Nov. 1, 2017 1:39pm)

Re: Nadal number one at year end

you Sir are nothing but a fucking bully and I want nothing more to do with you. We here do not attack each other. Go back to the crass forums you come from!

16 Wimbledon 14 US Open Yoda Cup
16 Wimbledon 14 French Open Alpha Cup
12, 13 & 16 King Droid
15 Naboo Cup 14 Lord Vader- RU

Re: Nadal number one at year end

Well I did not intend to insult you but if I did I appologize, BHP.

I thought I was just commenting on your post without using any
bad language or name calling. Well, I guess some people want
everybody to agree with them!!!

Re: Nadal number one at year end

I appreciate your apology but not your little dig at the end of your post. See that is how you seem to communicate. Great insight but mixed with a demeaning tone.

16 Wimbledon 14 US Open Yoda Cup
16 Wimbledon 14 French Open Alpha Cup
12, 13 & 16 King Droid
15 Naboo Cup 14 Lord Vader- RU

Re: Nadal number one at year end

I wholeheartedly agree and appologize for my idiotic reply at the end
of the post. It is important for me that you understand that I am NOT
a bad person and definitely need to change that about myself and will.

We may NOT always agree on everything but it is important to receive
respect as well as give it (I am talking to myself NOT anyone else)!!!

Last edited by sneaky (Nov. 1, 2017 2:14pm)

Re: Nadal number one at year end

Your passion just seems to overtake your reason, though, Sneaky, that's all.  You're clearly not like other tennis forum trolls, but when it comes to Nadal you turn into one.

Re: Nadal number one at year end

sneaky wrote:

I wholeheartedly agree and appologize for my idiotic reply at the end
of the post. It is important for me that you understand that I am NOT
a bad person and definitely need to change that about myself and will.

We may NOT always agree on everything but it is important to receive
respect as well as give it (I am talking to myself NOT anyone else)!!!

Thank you Sneaky...

16 Wimbledon 14 US Open Yoda Cup
16 Wimbledon 14 French Open Alpha Cup
12, 13 & 16 King Droid
15 Naboo Cup 14 Lord Vader- RU

Re: Nadal number one at year end

Arvis wrote:

Your passion just seems to overtake your reason, though, Sneaky, that's all.  You're clearly not like other tennis forum trolls, but when it comes to Nadal you turn into one.

YES......I do NOT want to come across as obnoxious but at times do and sincerely
appologize!!! YEAH....when it comes to certain players I do sometimes get a bit
irrational and I do appreciate you NOT putting me in the same category as those
crazy trolls.

You have reminded me yet again that civility/respect is always important!!!

Hey Arvis.....after Nadal won the US Open I read a complementary artice on Nadal's
win on the ATP site!!! At the end of the article there were many posts from fans and
they were mixed with good and bad posts as always!!! I did read all the posts but the
negative ones stood out as always!!! Obviously, they were very nasty/demeaning/belittling
posts that I definitely would NOT post.......the level of nastiness on a personal level likely
reveals the extreme anger and lack of self-esteem in the lives of these individuals!!!

Arvis......I sometimes wonder if the top players read the posts of their many fans
and enemies!!! I doubt they do because they do NOT have much time but maybe some
of their friends and relatives tell them!!!

Re: Nadal number one at year end

Milo wrote:
sneaky wrote:

I wholeheartedly agree and appologize for my idiotic reply at the end
of the post. It is important for me that you understand that I am NOT
a bad person and definitely need to change that about myself and will.

We may NOT always agree on everything but it is important to receive
respect as well as give it (I am talking to myself NOT anyone else)!!!

Thank you Sneaky...

No need to thank me, BHP.......I thank you for calling me out on my
stupidity......and I definitely feel much better today after appologizing
and admitting that I was out of line and WRONG!!!

Re: Nadal number one at year end

Sneaky,
I'm heartened by your apology.  Thank-you for taking the high road.  You are restoring my trust in you.

In answer to your question, I actually do not believe the tours are clean of PEDs.  However I do think 'illegal' PEDs are probably less common than many believe.  Athletes try to give themselves every advantage.  Is training more than your competitors unfair?  What about the food they eat?  What if all were forced to eat the same diet?  Athletes are constantly looking for techniques in training, diet, breathing, you name it... to give them a leg up on the competition.

And that includes performance enhancing drugs.  Maybe some take aspirin to help blood flow.  Maybe some take sugar bills or power bars to give them extra energy during a match.  Maybe some eat pomegranates because they believe the anti-oxidants help them recover faster. 

My point is this, the line between drug and food is almost indistinguishable.  But there IS a line between what is allowed and what is not.  Athletes rely on WADA to tell them what substances they can take and what they cannot.  So if they take performance-enhancers that are legal, the world at large is ok with that because that's what we've collectively agreed on.

Maria Sharapova was taking Meldonium while it was legal to do so.  It seems likely she was doing it for performance enhancing reasons.  And that was perfectly ok.  It became not ok when the rules changed and she continued taking it.

We simply cannot (imo) say that athletes are wrong to take performance enhancers or to engage in performance enhancing activity.  We can however say they are wrong to take banned performance enhancers.

There is no evidence that Nadal has taken illegal performance enhancers.

Also it does not seem unreasonable to me that Nadal might play the best defensive game of all time (although I would argue he mixes in a lot of offense too).  Someone has to be the best (logically, by definition) at that style of play, and it could well be Nadal.  He brings a lot of uniqueness to what he does.  His topspin is apparently more than everyone else's (so the commentators say, citing rpm's of his balls), his speed is also a great strength, and his amazing accuracy hitting the corners and lines betells a lot of talent and hand-eye coordination.  And then look at his body.  The guy is physical specimen of muscle and sturdiness.  It does not surprise me that he can pull off the athletic feats he does.

Nadal's uniqueness does not seem fishy to me.  It doesn't seem any fishier than Federer's unique talent.  Uniqueness is not a valid argument to prove illegal PED use.

2017 Supreme Jedi, 2017 Lord Vader, 2017 Chivalrous Wookie, 2015 Naboo Champion, 2018 Big Fat Nothing

Re: Nadal number one at year end

sneaky wrote:

Arvis......I sometimes wonder if the top players read the posts of their many fans
and enemies!!! I doubt they do because they do NOT have much time but maybe some
of their friends and relatives tell them!!!

They totally do, mostly on Twitter.  They get a LOT of abuse from gamblers through social media.

I remember Mahut retweeting a particularly filthy death threat with the response "Thank u for ur support" after he lost a close match.  And Madison Keys would often retweet the filth people sent her after a loss.  It's horrible.

It's the same with Nadal.  He's a person with feelings like us, so imagine how he must feel being accused of things like doping.  Since we have to assume he's innocent until proven otherwise, I think it's got to upset him.  I know I'd be pretty crushed if I achieved my dreams and then people dismissed it by claiming I cheated.

You know, Sneaky, I used to really hate Nadal and resent his every win.  But the fact is that tennis has never seen his like before, and likely won't in the future, so wouldn't it be better to at least TRY to appreciate being around for his unique and surprising career?  Not only that, but you can't argue with his character: he's a good and giving person, and very complimentary of Federer and his other peers.

But when all is said and done, if you don't like a player, you don't like a player.  That won't change unless you want to change it. tongue
For me, it was just easier to accept Nadal rather than to continue resenting him.  And I enjoy tennis so much more now as a result.

Re: Nadal number one at year end

Wow Arvis!  What a cool sentiment!

2017 Supreme Jedi, 2017 Lord Vader, 2017 Chivalrous Wookie, 2015 Naboo Champion, 2018 Big Fat Nothing

Re: Nadal number one at year end

As usual an excellent post filled with great detail, Dwight.
The ATP has definitely changed through the years because
in the 80s and 90s there was NOT too much buzz about
possible PED usage!!!

I think in today's tour with all the money that can be made
there is definitely some cheating. Just look at pro baseball
in the last 20 or 30 year.......its reputation has gone in the
garbage can!!! People still watch though and I guess do
NOT care!!! I remember Lyle Alzado played for the Raiders
in the 80's and died of a brain tumor do to steroid usage.
Probably most sports today have some cheaters but as you
stated it is the "banned substances" that should be looked
at closely!!!

Nadal's game has obviously been extremely successful and
many will applaud him and give him huge credit!!! I simply
have some reservations as a 30+ year fan because I have
NEVER seen any other player win so much with mostly IMO
physical strength. To be fair though....it is in the realm of
possibility that he is physically superior to every pro that
has ever played Tennis.

Anyway........Nadal defeated Chung in the 1st round and will
end 2017 as world #1.

Yeah......I remember Madison Keys did mention all the nasty
posts she got on social media.

I remember one of the college basketball coaches ordered his
players NOT to look at or post messages on social media during
a certain time!!! He was right on the money because the athletes
should NOT give any attention to any of that useless GARBAGE!!!

Nadal is for now INNOCENT......but put his playing style aside and
some of his results look strange IM0!!! For example, he did well
at Wimbledon from 2006-2011 and then from 2011 till now has
had a string of losses to lesser lower ranked players. It is a bit
odd to me and could be looked at in a darker more dishonest
way!!! Why the big drop in results after having played so well for
5 years straight? Some fans believe it is odd and could mean he
either dishonestly increased his results  some years and dishonestly
decreased his results in the last 7 years!!!

So you see.........his career trajectory is UNEVEN......and may be
seen as suspicious in the eyes of some fans and many other fans
do NOT notice or do NOT care!!!

So IMO Nadal's game and career trajectory (uneven results) make
him a target by NOT just me but there are many other fans.

For now who knows....but sports is such a tough business where athletes
invest so much of themselves to be successful and NOT everyone will
make it so the chance is there for dishonesty IMHO!!!

Re: Nadal number one at year end

Well, from 05-07 Federer won basically everything, and for years after that he made all Slam semifinals a zillion times in a row.  But then that streak ended, too.  And this year he won a ton of tournaments and two Slams, but also lost to Donskoy and Haas.

The answer is not PEDs.

Re: Nadal number one at year end

My point is Federer and even Djokovic have had a more even trajectory of results
compared with Nadal!!! It may mean NOTHING but it is weird/strange to see such
uneven results at majors and smaller events for a top player!!!

Federer and Djokovic have a more believable trajectory regarding consistency of
results throughout their careers compared with Nadal!!!

Nadal's uneven results may be a direct result of of PED usage/dishonesty but then
again it may NOT mean anything. The point is it looks suspicious and makes certain
people look at him differently!!!

Last edited by sneaky (Nov. 2, 2017 3:00pm)

Re: Nadal number one at year end

Thanks Sneaky, for that wonderful answer/reflection on my post.
You make a very interesting point about Nadal's uneven results.  I've noticed that too.  But I've noticed it with some other players too.

Nadal was #1 in 2008, 2010, 2013, and 2017.  It's interesting that after being #1 the first time (2008) it was 2 years till he did it again, then 3 years, then 4 years.  Does this mean we can next expect to see him at #1 in 5 years (2022)? Actually, I think 2020 is more likely for reasons I'm about to describe...

I think the sequence 2, 3, 4, is probably just accidental, but it seems typical of Nadal that he peaks every 3 years or so.  He also had a peak year in 2005, when he won 4 masters titles and his first GS.  So on average, he's peaking every 3 years or so.

I noticed the same pattern with John McEnroe.  He first hit the top 10 in 1978.  Then in 1981 he won 2 slams and finished yearend #1 for the first time.  His next big peak was 1984.  Always 3 years apart.

Goran Ivanisevic seemed to have a similar pattern with Wimbledon finals.  He made the final in 1992, 1994, 1998, and 2001, averaging a 3 year gap each time.

Because this pattern is not unique to Nadal, my guess is that some players psychology is such that it's natural for them to peak about every 3 years.  They have a peak year, and then a natural let down afterward.  Then they have a rebuilding year, before having another peak year.  I'm just guessing, of course.

I doubt that it is related to PEDs, or to any weird form of cheating.  I think it's probably a natural psychological cycle for them.  But of course, I do not know this for sure.

Regardless, it's an interesting pattern.

2017 Supreme Jedi, 2017 Lord Vader, 2017 Chivalrous Wookie, 2015 Naboo Champion, 2018 Big Fat Nothing

Re: Nadal number one at year end

Your welcome, Dwight. You are a big fan like so many on this forum
and have excellent knowledge of this sport.

I agree that some other top players from the past have also had some uneven
results. However, in today's game with a different format (32-seed) the early
rounds are a bit easier today. Focusing specifically on the early rounds of majors
and smaller events.......Nadal has very uneven results compared with Federer
and Djokovic!!!

Some fans on other forums (of course likely NOT Nadal fans) have an interesting
theory regarding his disappointing results at Wimbledon from 2012 to now!!!
They believe he and his uncle wanted to lower expectations at Wimbledon by
losing early which would spread out his success over years and would make him
more immune to scrutiny (why he wins so much?) and comparisons to Federer!!!
Too put it bluntly........they think by lowering expectations and creating the image
of a top player that is NOT as consistent as Federer will take away the judgement/
scrutiny from the fans!!!

Obviously, it is just a theory and can NOT be proven but it looks a bit odd that
Nadal made 4 out 5 finals from 2006-2011 (did not play in 2009) and then loses
to lesser players from 2012 to now!!!

IMO.....Nadal's playing style and uneven results making him the strangest and
weirdest top player ever!!! It is possible Nadal and his uncle Tony Nadal believe they
are smarter than all the fans and the Tennis community!!!

Last edited by sneaky (Nov. 2, 2017 10:17pm)

Re: Nadal number one at year end

Well Sneaky, that is a very interesting theory.

It seems unlikely to me, however.  Uncle Toni said this year something like... he is confident they will catch Federer and surpass 19 slams.  This does not sound like someone who is trying to hide in the shadows.  Rather, it seems like a stated ambition to exceed Federer and be recognized as the greatest ever.
http://www.eurosport.com/tennis/toni-na … tory.shtml
This is directly at odds with the view of tanking Wimbledons.  I can't imagine why Nadal would NOT want to win Wimbledon.  He seems to have great veneration for the place.

Rather I think the answer is simply that Nadal's game is not as good on grass as it is on clay.  His results at Wimbledon are not that far out of line with his results at the hard court slams... and likely the transition from clay to grass hurts Nadal a bit and makes him more prone to losing early at Wimbledon.

Here are averages for Nadal's results at each of the slams (1=1R, 2=2R, 3=3R, 4=4R, 5=QF, 6=SF, 7=RU, 8=Win)

Nadal average result throughout career
AO=5.25
RG=7.08
W=4.58
US=5.08
overall = 5.52

From this I would say that Nadal thrives on clay, is middling on hard, and a little worse on grass.  I think that seems like a reasonable summation of his game, so I do not suspect a conspiracy.

BTW, overall slam performance of other notable players:

Borg 6.22
Djokovic 5.69
Federer 5.63
Nadal 5.52
Connors 5.14
Murray 5.09
Lendl 4.96
Sampras 4.90
McEnroe 4.78
Agassi 4.67
Becker 4.59
Edberg 4.37
Wilander 4.34

2017 Supreme Jedi, 2017 Lord Vader, 2017 Chivalrous Wookie, 2015 Naboo Champion, 2018 Big Fat Nothing

Re: Nadal number one at year end

Seems weird to go through the risk and bodily toll of taking PEDs only to purposely lose Slams.

Re: Nadal number one at year end

Those are excellent stats and information on this subject, Dwight.

You may be correct but IMO losing in the early rounds 6 years in row
after making the finals at Wimbledon 4 of 5 years is ODD for a top player!!!
You have to admit that no other top player maybe ever has ever had such
uneven/strange/weird results that look questionable!!! His results at
the US Open are also kind of uneven as well.

I mean who knows....these are just observations but they make Nadal
look dishonest and could be seen as circumstantial evidence against a
very strange/weird player!!!

Yes.......Toni Nadal says that Nadal is aiming to surpass Federer but I
do NOT think he means that because that might open Nadal up for
some scrutiny they really do NOT want IMO!!! I think Toni Nadal and
his nephew are very happy to be second to Federer because if they
surpass him then oh I don't know mayybbee somebody will put Nadal
under a microscope and that might hurt them badly!!!

We just have very different opinions and in the future I am certain this
will be settled!!! Then and only then.......we will know if Nadal is innocent
or guilty!!!

Re: Nadal number one at year end

Makes me very happy to see such thought provoking exchanges.

However as players we know know how difficult it is to lose a match on purpose and make it look convincing at any skill level. It just can't be done consistently without the fans and the establishment taking note of it.  Just can't.

Last edited by Milo (Nov. 3, 2017 12:42pm)

16 Wimbledon 14 US Open Yoda Cup
16 Wimbledon 14 French Open Alpha Cup
12, 13 & 16 King Droid
15 Naboo Cup 14 Lord Vader- RU

Re: Nadal number one at year end

Agreed Milo.
And by Toni saying he wants Rafa to surpass Federer.... that invites scrutiny.
And really... could Rafa be any more scrutinized? It's not like he's hiding in the shadows.  He's one of the most recognized athletes in the world (not just tennis).  I don't think anything he would do now would make him more scrutinized than he already is.

2017 Supreme Jedi, 2017 Lord Vader, 2017 Chivalrous Wookie, 2015 Naboo Champion, 2018 Big Fat Nothing