Topic: Let's talk about Star Wars

We are obviously big Star Wars fans, with all of the awards being named after people/places in the Star Wars Universe. So, I thought I would start a discussion about it. Starting off, let's just rank the movies from best to worst.

1. Empire Strikes Back
2. Return of the Jedi
3. Rogue One
4. Attack of the Clones
5. A New Hope
6. The Force Awakens
7. Revenge of the Sith
8. The Phantom Menace
9. The Last Jedi

I saw the TLJ last week, and it was baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad. I didn't think Phantom Menace would ever be topped as worst Star Wars movie, but TLJ did that, by a mile as well.

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Re: Let's talk about Star Wars

Hi Aiur

I agree, TLJ was poor on many levels. Whether it was the worst...
I would put A New Hope and The Force Awakens higher.

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Re: Let's talk about Star Wars

Snored through most of Phantom Menace and didn't understand any of it.  Saw Last Jedi yesterday and it was excellent.  The two aren't close to the same level.

I think you have to really really be determined to hate The Last Jedi in order to really think it was a bad movie.

Re: Let's talk about Star Wars

Best to Worst.

1. A New Hope (Started it all - Don't get cocky kid and let the wookie win)
2. Empire Strikes Back (Do or do not - There is no try)
3. Attack of the Clones (The beginning of the dark side in Anakin)
4. The Force Awakens (Quit holding my hand - Who are Reys parents)
5. Return of the Jedi (My father has it - I have it - and my Sister has it)
6. Revenge of the Sith (Battle between Obiwan and Anakin was awesome)
7. Rogue One (Excellent story-line for first spin-off)
8. The Last Jedi (Luke was whiny - Leah flew through the air - ridiculous)
9. The Phantom Menace (I'll rank it lower as soon as the next one comes out)

Re: Let's talk about Star Wars

Looks like Murreee needs to watch Attack of the Clones and Last Jedi one more time each. tongue

Re: Let's talk about Star Wars

Arvis you have attach of the clones at 4 and I have it at three so I think we are on the same page there...

TLJ was disappointing to me because Luke had lost belief in the Jedi Order (of course his point is that you don't need to be a Jedi to embrace the force which is why Rey does not need to be from any Jedi linage)...

Also Leia flying through space like Shazaam was the single most ridiculous star wars scene ever..!!!

Credits: Saber battle between Rey and Kylo was awesome and Luke's response to Kylo at the end "No" was perfect... Quote "Permission to jump into an X-Wing and blow up something"

Because you asked I will watch them both again and again - Hopefully The Last Jedi won't end up being rated Last..!!!

Re: Let's talk about Star Wars

All of the Rey and Kylo stuff in Last Jedi ALONE makes it better than Attack of the Clones.  Also, that was Aiur who (insanely) put Episode II at #4.  Not me.  I'd put it second to last just before Phantom Menace (which commits the greatest movie sin of all: being incredibly boring to watch).

The Leia scene you're talking about was sort silly-looking, but it was nice for the character to get her one big Use The Force moment.  It just could have looked ... less dumb, I suppose.

Since everyone else is doing it, I guess I'll post my order:

1. A New Hope
2. Empire Strikes Back
3. Return of the Jedi
4. The Last Jedi
5. The Force Awakens
6. Rogue One (a bit overrated, this one)
7. Revenge of the Sith
8. Attack of the Clones
9. Phantom Menace (trade disputes!)

Last edited by Arvis (Jan. 3, 2018 1:30pm)

Re: Let's talk about Star Wars

Arvis - At least we agree on the first and the last...

I wish Leia had a better Force moment - Like teaming up with Rey to move the rocks at the end - Or holding off Kylo at the very end as the Falcon escapes... I may be too harsh on TLJ at the moment - But the injustice to Luke and Leia bothers me alot...

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Re: Let's talk about Star Wars

Murreee wrote:

injustice to Luke and Leia bothers me alot...

This is the kind of negative hyperbole that other movie franchises don't really see.  As a lifelong fan of Star Wars (read every novel I could find as a kid) I just don't know where this cry of "injustice" is coming from.

Not a perfect film, of course, but it has so much more good than bad.

Re: Let's talk about Star Wars

Of course they do - Back to the future, Karate Kid, Rocky - All the sequels have their critics...

Just expressing my high respect for Luke and Leia and wishing for a better end for their characters...

I respect you thoughts on this topic and I am not determined to hate on TLJ...

Highly anticipating the new Han spin-off and the long wait for SW9...

Re: Let's talk about Star Wars

Arvis wrote:

Snored through most of Phantom Menace and didn't understand any of it.  Saw Last Jedi yesterday and it was excellent.  The two aren't close to the same level.

I think you have to really really be determined to hate The Last Jedi in order to really think it was a bad movie.

We're two movies into this trilogy, and there has been zero world building. How did the First Order rise up after the Empire was defeated? What happened to the Republic? Is nobody outraged four or five planets were destroyed by Starkiller Base? It sure seems that way. Say what you will about the Prequels, but they built up the world in a fantastic way. You got the sense the movies took place in a large galaxy. I feel like this current trilogy takes place in fish bowl.

BTW, as for how bad TLJ is, I'm not going to post any spoilers for anyone that hasn't seen it, but the whole Rose-Finn plotline is literally useless and could've been avoided if Admiral whatever her name is (the characters are so forgettable in the movie, I barely even knew Rose's name) just told Poe her plan. Also, Luke's character. In ROTJ, he gave himself to the Empire because he thought there was some good in Vader, who was the first or second most purely evil being in the galaxy. And yet in TLJ, he was willing to go to that extreme because he saw a *possible* future of his nephew? Complete joke. Mark Hamill tried to warn us as best he could leading up to the movie. Lastly, Kylo Ren. In TFA, he was conflicted, obviously. Putting a saber through Han's chest and looking him straight in the eye as he died was a symbol of him embracing the dark side and shedding any conflicted feelings he had, or so we all thought. But no, in TLJ he's not changed at all. The death of Han Solo meant nothing, it happened for no reason other than to give Harrison Ford the Han Solo death he's wanted for like 35 years.

It's really sad what they've done with these movies. I wasn't a huge fan of TFA, thought it was just ANH with different characters. However, it setup TLJ pretty well with potential arcs. Almost none of them are explored, and what does get explored is just a massive disappointment.

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Re: Let's talk about Star Wars

- Your "fish bowl" complaint is, I feel, valid.  There is a devastating lack context for any of this.  But all the context in the world could not redeem Phantom Menace.  Let's not rose-tint our view of that one.

- The Rose/Finn escapade should have payoff in Episode IX, but we'll see.  I don't want to lean too heavily on "Middle Of A Three-Part Story" excuse, especially considering what came in the middle of the OT.

- Considering how the New Order fleet was able to find them, Vice Admiral Holdo had to assume there was a traitor/spy on board, so secrecy was paramount to executing her plan.  I feel like this was addressed in the plot, but maybe not?

- Luke did not go to any "extreme" with Kylo.  It was a momentary consideration that unfortunately came at the wrong time.  He explained that pretty adequately.  Plus, with Vader, he had the luxury of already having tried to kill him before he put his trust in the Light left inside him.

- Kylo's inner conflict will be a major theme of this whole trilogy, so it's actually a GOOD thing that he still has it.  Han's death still has meaning, because we still need to understand what Kylo is capable of, making his future hesitations that much more impactful.  Killing Han was a Kylo without Rey, but the more contact with Rey he gets, the more it affects him (and you know all the Kylo/Rey stuff in Ep VIII was awesome).  Luke's entire spiel about the Force and it always needing "balance" could start to have a double-meaning about being balanced within each individual person, as well as over the galaxy.

- What did Mark Hamill warn us about?

- And finally, I think people can safely assume that a topic entitled "Let's talk about Star Wars" will be full of spoilers. tongue

Last edited by Arvis (Jan. 5, 2018 9:32am)

Re: Let's talk about Star Wars

Aiur you are so right - I Hated to see Luke thinking about killing Kylo - Especially while he was asleep - Luke absolutely saw the good in Vader and should have seen it in Kylo like Rey does - Also, Kylo is Han and Leia's son for goodness sake - Even Obiwan tried to save Anakin when he knew it was his destiny to destroy him...

One of the most enduring themes from the first trilogy was the fact that Luke saw good in Vader - This is Star Wars 101 - TLJ is dangerously close to changing the foundation of Star Wars...

Clearly the producers got this wrong - Hopefully Abrams can fix all this...

Arvis - I do agree with you on one point - "I don't want to lean too heavily on "Middle Of A Three-Part Story" excuse, especially considering what came in the middle of the OT." - There is still hope for a good conclusion..!!!

Last edited by Murreee (Jan. 5, 2018 1:27pm)

Re: Let's talk about Star Wars

Murreee wrote:

I Hated to see Luke thinking about killing Kylo - Especially while he was asleep - Luke absolutely saw the good in Vader and should have seen it in Kylo like Rey does - Also, Kylo is Han and Leia's son for goodness sake - Even Obiwan tried to save Anakin when he knew it was his destiny to destroy him...

Gotta say, you're explaining Luke's motivations in this movie really well.  Even better than the movie itself, I think.  The film doesn't do enough to portray Luke's massive shame and regret.  If it did, we obviously wouldn't be having this discussion. tongue

Re: Let's talk about Star Wars

Arvis wrote:

- Your "fish bowl" complaint is, I feel, valid.  There is a devastating lack context for any of this.  But all the context in the world could not redeem Phantom Menace.  Let's not rose-tint our view of that one.

- The Rose/Finn escapade should have payoff in Episode IX, but we'll see.  I don't want to lean too heavily on "Middle Of A Three-Part Story" excuse, especially considering what came in the middle of the OT.

- Considering how the New Order fleet was able to find them, Vice Admiral Holdo had to assume there was a traitor/spy on board, so secrecy was paramount to executing her plan.  I feel like this was addressed in the plot, but maybe not?

- Luke did not go to any "extreme" with Kylo.  It was a momentary consideration that unfortunately came at the wrong time.  He explained that pretty adequately.  Plus, with Vader, he had the luxury of already having tried to kill him before he put his trust in the Light left inside him.

- Kylo's inner conflict will be a major theme of this whole trilogy, so it's actually a GOOD thing that he still has it.  Han's death still has meaning, because we still need to understand what Kylo is capable of, making his future hesitations that much more impactful.  Killing Han was a Kylo without Rey, but the more contact with Rey he gets, the more it affects him (and you know all the Kylo/Rey stuff in Ep VIII was awesome).  Luke's entire spiel about the Force and it always needing "balance" could start to have a double-meaning about being balanced within each individual person, as well as over the galaxy.

- What did Mark Hamill warn us about?

- And finally, I think people can safely assume that a topic entitled "Let's talk about Star Wars" will be full of spoilers. tongue

There will be ******SPOILERS****** here for anyone who hasn't seen it, so you have been warned.

I'm not rose-tinting anything Phantom Menace related. Everything involving Jar-Jar Binks and Anakin is complete garbage. There are moments that are good, though. Darth Maul is a more intriguing character than Kylo Ren to me, and I don't think he spoke a single word. It also introduces Palpatine and throughout the next two movies, his character is beautifully setup.

The Rose-Finn escape can't pay off. Their sole purpose was to find a code breaker to get into the First Order ship to break some codes to let the rebel fleet warp out. Didn't happen. Sure, there was some very forced building of the Finn-Rose relationship, and maybe they'll kill Benicio del Toro (again, I can't actually remember his character's name) in the next movie or something, but they failed with their mission, period.

By the way, Rose's character literally doesn't work. She "saves" Finn at the end (absolutely remarkable that she didn't kill both of them in the process, and how they made it back to the base when they were right in front of about seven AT-AT's, but I digress) and says, "You don't win by destroying evil, you win by saving those you love" or something. Sounds good, right? Maybe, but it doesn't apply here. Her sister died destroying the super dreadnought, a symbol of evil. She saved countless lives with her sacrifice. Finn was about to do the same by crashing into the doorbuster thing. Remember, at the point where Rose "saved" Finn, everybody in the rebel base was thought to be trapped. Nobody knew of a secondary exit, and nobody knew Luke was going to show up (well, sort of). So, instead of Finn destroying that machine, she stopped him and doomed everyone in that base. Now, of course through a series of incredibly lucky events, the five rebels left make it out. However, at that moment, since she knew none of that, she actually condemned everyone to die.

That's fine to assume there was a traitor on board. However, Poe had several one on one conversations with her, and she still wouldn't tell him her plan, which is why he setup the Finn-Rose subplot and mutinied later. If you're going to try and say Poe was a potential spy......no, just no. He blew up Starkiller Base, like yesterday in the timeline. A few hours prior to Holdo taking command, he helped blow up the super dreadnought. If you're going to say he was a potential traitor, then Leia was a more likely candidate. I honestly thought it was Holdo who was a spy, and then it turned out she was just unbelievably incompetent.

Murreeee went a little more in-depth on Luke. There really isn't more to say. You can't expect me to believe Luke would risk his life and the lives of the entire galaxy on a dude who chopped off his arm lat time they met and then tell me he would be willing to kill his teenage nephew, who was still on the Jedi path at the time. It's not like Ben murdered the rest of Luke's students before Luke tried to kill him. Complete destruction of Luke's character.

Go back and watch some Mark Hamill interviews pre-release. I think the most telling think he said was something along the lines of, "I love everyone's role in this film except mine," when talking to Rian Johnson. He also said he told Rian, "A Jedi wouldn't just give up and seclude himself on an island for 30 years. He might leave temporarily, but he would regroup and do the right thing." Something like that.

I actually didn't care for any of the Rey/Kylo stuff in this movie. There is no real tension between them, no sense of good versus evil. Contrast that with Luke versus Vader, or Obi-Wan versus Anakin. There was tension there, a clear sense of one side fighting for good and one side fighting for evil. Kylo isn't evil. He killed his father in cold blood, watching the light extinguish from his soul, but then he couldn't kill his mother with a long range laser shot. He's a petulant child. Did I enjoy the fight scene with Rey and Kylo. Yea, of course, as a spectacle it is quite good. Rey shouldn't have been able to dispatch a single praetorian guard seeing as how she's only a couple days removed from touching a lightsaber for the first time, but I digress.

A massive problem with this movie that nobody wants to acknowledge is the lack of time that has gone by from the previous movie. This movie picks up as soon as TFA ends. There is no perceived character development over a period of time we can't see. To put it in perspective, Han Solo died like a few days ago, yet Leia doesn't acknowledge it in this film, not one bit. It's like it happened years ago. Rey was a nobody junker on a desert planet a few days ago. Not only that, she's been trained for maybe 30 minutes, yet she seems to have complete mastery of her Force powers and a saber. That's not the way the Force works, LOL. It's been established by previous movies. The only way the third movie can be salvaged IMO is if the crawl says 10 or 20 years have passed since the events of TLJ, basically starting fresh and making it a one-off.

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Re: Let's talk about Star Wars

Darth Maul is a more intriguing character than Kylo Ren to me

No. He has had 20 years to become "intriguing".  In a vacuum, he was nothing but a walking lightsaber in Ep I.
Nice point about Palpatine, though, even if it pays off badly in Ep III.

Rose/Finn failed in their mission, period.

Of course they did.  Everyone failed, in this movie.  The theme of the entire movie is failure.  But if we listen to Yoda, it's passing that failure on and learning from it that matters, which I would expect them to explore in Ep IX.
Your complaints about Rose are certainly valid.  She acted with her heart, still in anguish from the death of her sister, and she prevented someone else she cared about from making the same sacrifice.  A beautiful sentiment, but framed impractically.  I can see why that would take a person out of that moment, especially on rewatch after time for reflection.

If you're going to try and say Poe was a potential spy......no, just no

Yes, great point, as usual, you're thorough and convincing.  However, from a leadership standpoint, it wouldn't be safe to assume anything at that point and just trust in the chain of command.  Someone close to Poe could easily have been a spy.  This entire topic is one of many stretches in attempting to hate this movie more than it deserves.

he would be willing to kill his teenage nephew, who was still on the Jedi path at the time

The whole point of that was that it was one fleeting moment of fear and it had cosmic consequences.  He was never willing to kill him, he only thought it for one moment.  And look what happened. Hence: Luke cuts himself off from the Force and the galaxy.  Makes sense and it was well done.

"A Jedi wouldn't just give up and seclude himself on an island for 30 years. He might leave temporarily, but he would regroup and do the right thing."

Sorry Mr. Hamill, but both Obi-Wan and Yoda from the OT say you're completely wrong here.


As for the rest, I could not disagree more about your dismissal of the Kylo/Rey stuff, which was the heart of the whole movie.  It was brilliant, touching, and compelling.  Saying there's no tension between them just makes me feel like we didn't see the same movie.

As for Rey's "fighting ability", it is at best "street style" from raising herself on a godforsaken backwater and at worst "typical sci-fi handwaving".  Nothing to get upset about and has plenty of explanation behind it.

And I think you're absolutely right about Ep IX starting with a crawl that says "10 Years After Luke Skywalker's death..."  That is almost certainly the right way to go from here.

Re: Let's talk about Star Wars

Arvis wrote: "Sorry Mr. Hamill, but both Obi-Wan and Yoda from the OT say you're completely wrong here."


Obiwan and Yoda from the OT were different than Luke in TLJ...

Obiwan was secluded for 17 years to watch over Luke until he could take his place as the chosen one - Yoda was secluded during the same 17 years to prepare to train Luke to save the Jedi Order... Both were trusting in the force and the Jedi order to ultimately prevail...

In TLJ - Luke went into hiding to quit - To bring an end to the Jedi - To feel sorry for himself - To be selfish by leaving Leia to defend the Galaxy by herself...

Luke had lost touch with the force - and with his family - He didn't even know that Han had died...

Anakin tried to save his mother when she cried out to him in his dreams - And the only reason he even turned to the darkside was so he could get powerful enough to keep Padme alive ("I should have been powerful enough to save her - I will become powerful enough to save you")... Anakin was driven to save the ones he loved - And ultimately turned against Palpatine to save Luke...

When Obiwan fought Anakin he tried to save him and when he couldn't he said "Anakin I loved you - You were my brother"

This is Star Wars 101 - When Luke was being trained by Yoda and knew Han and Leia were in trouble he left to save them before his training was complete - During the force awakens everyone wondered - Where is Luke - When Han was left to face Kylo - Where is Luke - Well at the end of the force awakens we see Rey approach Luke and there is hope...

TLJ destroyed that hope by destroying Luke's character - Leaving him bitter - whimpy - whiny and defeated... Sending his astral-projected self at the end to save a fraction of the resistance was a failed attempt at redemption for "the chosen one"...

This is why I feel TLJ had come close to destroying the foundation of the series... But I am hopeful the next movie will fix all this..!!!

Last edited by Murreee (Jan. 5, 2018 6:55pm)

Re: Let's talk about Star Wars

Arvis, you say everyone failed in the movie, but there is no sense of danger for any of the main characters, and there's no real failure.

Poe - Destroyed every surface gun of the super dreadnought. A tie fighter hit him, but conveniently, it merely knocked out his weapons systems temporarily. Meanwhile, every other bomber and X-Wing blows up spectacularly.

Finn - Never in any danger on Canto Bight. When there is seemingly no hope after him and Rose ride one of those Last Guardian looking things to the edge of the cliff, I never had any doubt some miracle would save them. When Finn is about to have a character moment and become a legendary martyr for good, Rose stops it. On top of that, he drags Rose across the battlefield in full view of 7 AT-AT's and Kylo Ren's ship, and they have nothing left to fire at.

Rey - The worst one of all. Through two movies, she has barely seen anything you could classify as a failure. In TFA, she gets caught by Kylo, but is somehow stronger than him with the Force. She then escapes by Force persuading the stormtrooper (how did she even know Force persuasion was a thing, anyway? 5 minutes ago she was a random nobody on a desert world). After that, she bests Kylo handily in a one on one saber duel, despite only knowing how to lunge. In TLJ, she beats Luke's ass like it's nothing. Then she has her perceived moment of failure when she can't convince Kylo to turn good. Except, there's no failure here because Kylo killed Snoke, a being shown to have incredible Force powers. Who's the more formidable enemy, a moody brat who you've already beaten in a saber and Force power duel, or a supremely powerful being who tossed you around like a ragdoll and linked two minds across the galaxy? Also, she rips through the praetorian guards (who may or may not be the Knights of Ren) with ease.

Through two movies, she is every main character from the trilogy rolled into one. She can fly the Falcon with no problems at all. She can even repair it. Han Solo who? She's the strong, independent woman who can get herself out of a bad situation. Who was that Princess again? Despite knowing literally nothing about the Force or lightsabers, her Force powers are unbelievable and she's masterful wielding a saber. I'll see you in Tosche Station, puny Skywalker.

Here's a question for you, Arvis. Why would Luke go through the trouble of creating a map to his location if his intention was to waste away on that island? Why would he choose the island with the very first Jedi temple? Why not some random island with sunny skies and warm beaches?

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Re: Let's talk about Star Wars

I would assume it would be to curate and oversee the death of the Jedi Order which he now considers to be necessary?

Re: Let's talk about Star Wars

I spent the money and watched TLJ again - I must admit a second viewing brings much clarity to a few issues...

Rey took the Jedi scrolls with her - They are seen at the end in the Falcon... Yoda already knew this when he burned down the tree...

Luke had closed himself off from the force after his failure with Kylo - That is why he did not know Han was in trouble and was killed - And why he didn't try to help... Until that point Luke was still trying to restore the Jedi Order by training Ben and about a dozen other padawans...

The action was great - Special Effects and sound great - So I really did enjoy the movie...

Still hated Leia flying through the air..!!! (this is the silliest Star Wars scene ever)..!!!

Re: Let's talk about Star Wars

Arvis wrote:

I would assume it would be to curate and oversee the death of the Jedi Order which he now considers to be necessary?

So, he created a map, obviously wanting to be found. But when someone finds him and says he's needed, he says he's there to die. In what world does that make sense? BTW, he's been on that island for years. Why burn everything now? Wouldn't it make more sense if he did it as soon as he got there, and then cut himself off from the Force?

This is my theory. As with the Knights of Ren, Snoke's mysterious background, Rey's parents and Luke in general, Abrams wanted to explore these things in further detail and in Luke's case, make him at least on the level of TFA Han Solo in this movie. Sadly, Rian Johnson didn't care about any of that. He actively went about sabotaging this trilogy. He wanted to wipe the slate clean and have a blank canvas setting up the trilogy he will be getting later. Evidence for this:

1. Han Solo died in TFA, Luke in TLJ. Leia will be killed off in Episode IX no doubt. The end of the original characters. A clean slate.

2. When it came time to decide Luke's role, Johnson wanted to give him as little presence as possible, and when he does show up, to make people hate him. Later, when he gets his own trilogy and the kiddies are looking for a character to idolize, it won't be Luke, it'll be nobody number 546345.

3. Rey's parents are nobody's because Johnson wanted to get rid of the trope that only Skywalker's have Force powers. He didn't really need to do it, because in the Prequels you clearly see a ton of Jedi that are very diverse. It's already implied you don't have to be a Skywalker to have Force powers.

4. Rey hands Luke Anakin's lightsaber, and he tosses it away like a piece of garbage. Kylo destroys his helmet (easily the best part of his character, BTW), saying something like, "kill the past" or some garbage.

5. Snoke is cut down like a peasant because Johnson didn't want any comparisons to Palpatine.

I like your enthusiasm, Murreeee, seeing this movie a second time. I can't justify spending another penny on the atrocity myself. Besides, watching Rogue One and The Force Awakens multiple times has only brought more faults and ridiculous elements to my attention.

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Re: Let's talk about Star Wars

Did Luke make the map?  Genuinely don't know one way or the other?

Re: Let's talk about Star Wars

The official explanation I believe is the half of the map BB-8 was already known from Empire records. The Empire was looking for the Jedi Temple as part of Order 66, to wipe out the Jedi. However, if Luke stumbled upon this island just using the Empire's map, well nobody else should know where it is, it was just dumb luck that he found it. Moreover, nobody would know where he was, and there certainly wouldn't be a second piece to the map. Also, R2 had it. Not some random droid or person, but Luke's personal droid. I don't think you could come up with a logical explanation as to how someone else created the missing piece.

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